By rick meril, 8-28-10
Todd..............further references for you to take into account the long and full view of wolves and bison in GYS(Greater Yellowstone Ecosytem)
"Though the written historical record does establish the widespread distribution of bison throughout the GYE, that record was made too late to provide us with a full portrait of the relationships between native people and bison before those relationships were influenced by Euro-Americans. That written record was also made too late to portray anything necessarily resembling a so-called "pristine" state of ecological affairs in regional bison populations.
What the historical record does tell us is that bison were here, they were all over the place, they were abundant, and, if we may add a new and sadder meaning to Warren Ferris's words, "nothing remains visible of the long black lines but dark clouds slowly sweeping over the distant plains."
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"Though the written historical record does establish the widespread distribution of bison throughout the GYE, that record was made too late to provide us with a full portrait of the relationships between native people and bison before those relationships were influenced by Euro-Americans. That written record was also made too late to portray anything necessarily resembling a so-called "pristine" state of ecological affairs in regional bison populations.
What the historical record does tell us is that bison were here, they were all over the place, they were abundant, and, if we may add a new and sadder meaning to Warren Ferris's words, "nothing remains visible of the long black lines but dark clouds slowly sweeping over the distant plains."
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By rick meril, 8-31-10
MONTANA WOLF AND COUGAR BOUNTY RECORDS EARLY 20TH CENTURY...............
THE ENVIRONS OF YELLOWSTONE SAW SIGNIFICANT WOLF AND COUGAR BOUNTY TAKES IN THE FIRST THREE DECASDES OF THE 20TH CENTURY. IF THEY EXISTED AS LATE AS THE 1930'S THEY WERE THERE IN NUMBERS WHEN THEIR PREY BASE WAS MORE SUBSTANTIAL IN THE 16TH AND 17TH CENTURIES BEFORE INDIANS ON HORSEBACK AND WHITE MARKET HUNTERS DECIMATED THEIR NUMBERS:
AN ANALYSIS OF THE NUMBER OF MOUNTAIN LIONS (PUMA CONCOLOR) AND WOLVES (CANIS LUPUS) KILLED UNDER THE BOUNTY SYSTEM IN MONTANA, 1884 - 1962.
Mountain lions were listed on the first state-wide Montana bounty law passed in 1884. The estimated number of lion hides presented for payment varied from 177 in 1908 to 0 in 1932 (Figure AII.1). Despite demand and an increasing bounty payment, lion hides became scarce in the late 1920's and ceased being presented for payment in 1930. Written bounty records after 1932 have been lost so that comparable data are unavailable. Conflicting reports exist. Nowak (1976) indicated 191 mountain lions were taken between 1930 and 1950 under federal animal damage control. Montana Fish and Game Commission (unpublished files) suggest fewer than 5 annually were taken statewide under the bounty system until 1950. The number taken then increased through the 1950s to 167 in the 1961-1962 biennium (Riley 1992).
Bounty prices increased from $8.00 ($269 in 1995 dollars) per lion and $1.00 ($34 in 1995 dollars) per wolf in 1884 to $25.00 ($270 in 1995 dollars) for either species in 1930. Wolf pup prices increased from 50 cents in 1884 ($17 in 1995 dollars) to $5.00 ($54 in 1995 dollars) in 1930.
Records taken from original bounty record books permit enumeration of bounty take by counties as they existed in 1900 (Table AII.1 and 2). Park County, in southwest Montana adjacent to Yellowstone National Park was in the top 5 counties for density of lion and wolf take (number 5).135 136
THE ENVIRONS OF YELLOWSTONE SAW SIGNIFICANT WOLF AND COUGAR BOUNTY TAKES IN THE FIRST THREE DECASDES OF THE 20TH CENTURY. IF THEY EXISTED AS LATE AS THE 1930'S THEY WERE THERE IN NUMBERS WHEN THEIR PREY BASE WAS MORE SUBSTANTIAL IN THE 16TH AND 17TH CENTURIES BEFORE INDIANS ON HORSEBACK AND WHITE MARKET HUNTERS DECIMATED THEIR NUMBERS:
AN ANALYSIS OF THE NUMBER OF MOUNTAIN LIONS (PUMA CONCOLOR) AND WOLVES (CANIS LUPUS) KILLED UNDER THE BOUNTY SYSTEM IN MONTANA, 1884 - 1962.
Mountain lions were listed on the first state-wide Montana bounty law passed in 1884. The estimated number of lion hides presented for payment varied from 177 in 1908 to 0 in 1932 (Figure AII.1). Despite demand and an increasing bounty payment, lion hides became scarce in the late 1920's and ceased being presented for payment in 1930. Written bounty records after 1932 have been lost so that comparable data are unavailable. Conflicting reports exist. Nowak (1976) indicated 191 mountain lions were taken between 1930 and 1950 under federal animal damage control. Montana Fish and Game Commission (unpublished files) suggest fewer than 5 annually were taken statewide under the bounty system until 1950. The number taken then increased through the 1950s to 167 in the 1961-1962 biennium (Riley 1992).
Bounty prices increased from $8.00 ($269 in 1995 dollars) per lion and $1.00 ($34 in 1995 dollars) per wolf in 1884 to $25.00 ($270 in 1995 dollars) for either species in 1930. Wolf pup prices increased from 50 cents in 1884 ($17 in 1995 dollars) to $5.00 ($54 in 1995 dollars) in 1930.
Records taken from original bounty record books permit enumeration of bounty take by counties as they existed in 1900 (Table AII.1 and 2). Park County, in southwest Montana adjacent to Yellowstone National Park was in the top 5 counties for density of lion and wolf take (number 5).135 136
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By zbiker, 9-01-10
to put rick meril's list in more perspective, lets list it by geographical are, or more precisely wolves killed from the 1900-1931 time frame outside the wolf recovery area vs wolves killed in the area and neighboring counties
wolves OUTSIDE the recovery area:
Fergus.............1,043
Judith Basin.......5
Dawson............1,083
Custer..............2,448
Chouteau..........1,111
Dawson............1,083
Fallon...............51
Custer...............2,448
Garfield..............3
Golden Valley......3
Hill....................76
Judith Basin........5
Liberty...............9
Maccone............4
Meagher ............612
Musselshell.........157
Petrolieum..........0
Phillips...............61
18 counties total.............10,202 wolves
wolves inside recovery area and neighboring counties killed 1900-1931
Glacier...............12
Granite...............31
Jefferson............71
lake...................0
Lewis and Clark....250
Lincoln...............738
Madison..............122
Mineral...............0
Missoula..............20
Park...................405
Beaverhead.........597
Bighorn...............203
Broadwater..........77
Carbon................279
Deer Lodge..........53
Flathead..............492
Gallatin................106
17 counties total............3,456 wolves
10,202 wolves killed outside recommended recovery area vs 3,456 wolves killed around recommended recovery area in a 31 year timespan. thats 3 times as many, and that is not even counting the pups. kinda throws a kink in the argument that we need wolves in the GYA becouse it is a core area
wolves OUTSIDE the recovery area:
Fergus.............1,043
Judith Basin.......5
Dawson............1,083
Custer..............2,448
Chouteau..........1,111
Dawson............1,083
Fallon...............51
Custer...............2,448
Garfield..............3
Golden Valley......3
Hill....................76
Judith Basin........5
Liberty...............9
Maccone............4
Meagher ............612
Musselshell.........157
Petrolieum..........0
Phillips...............61
18 counties total.............10,202 wolves
wolves inside recovery area and neighboring counties killed 1900-1931
Glacier...............12
Granite...............31
Jefferson............71
lake...................0
Lewis and Clark....250
Lincoln...............738
Madison..............122
Mineral...............0
Missoula..............20
Park...................405
Beaverhead.........597
Bighorn...............203
Broadwater..........77
Carbon................279
Deer Lodge..........53
Flathead..............492
Gallatin................106
17 counties total............3,456 wolves
10,202 wolves killed outside recommended recovery area vs 3,456 wolves killed around recommended recovery area in a 31 year timespan. thats 3 times as many, and that is not even counting the pups. kinda throws a kink in the argument that we need wolves in the GYA becouse it is a core area
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By rick meril, 9-01-10
zbiker....................geez, first you and Todd challenge me to produce statistics revealing that gray wolves existed in the Greater Yellowstone System....................
so up on this blog come two sound revelations.............one by archaeolgists portraying the Grreater Yellowstone as having been excellent bison(as well as Elk, Moose, Mule Deer, Pronghorn, Wolf Griz, Cougar) habitat going back pre European contact...................
2nd being modern day 1880-1930 wolf and cougar recorded bounties in a Montana ecosystem greatly altered and degraded over a 500 year period by both Indian hunters on non native horses and commercial white hunters and bounty getters.....................
And then you have the gumption to say becasue wolf and cougar bounties outside the "core" Yellowstone region were significanctly higher, therefore screw putting the wolves back on the ground in Yellowstone.................
Zbiker, 500 years of "rip and raze" human degradation of wildlife and becasue in the most recent recorded documentation, not as many wolves were killed in Yellowstone and therefore do not put them back there..................Where should we put them?...Downtown Denver? For my money, they should be up and down and across the entire USA wherever enough open space allows...............that means the Adirondacks, Green and White Mountains in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York and Pennsylvania...............It means down the Appalachian Spine through the Smoky Mountains and onto Northern Georgia.............It means (with Buffalo restoration) across the Great Plains and Texas..................It means into California and up into Oregon and Washington State...................as well as Yellowstone to Yukon.........................and Arizona, New Mexico, Utah
Please stop being so narrow in your interpretations and comments..............the world did not begin in 1880 or 1930 or whenever you came onto the Planet........
The land is healthier with the widest variety of plants and animals occupying it. Over 50% of our medicines and foodstuffs come from wild plants and animals and we have barely touched the tip of the iceberg as it relates to understanding lifes processes and possibilities. If we do not have the broadest suite of living creatures on the ground, selfishly, you and I are not giving ourselves and our grandchildren the raw material to continue to make life great and rewarding.
I am all for the Ranchers continuing to make a living and enjoying the lifestyle that they have known for 150 years. I am asking for a little openmindedness and FAMILY VALUE orientation applied to our fellow creatures.....a modification of some of our habits..............this might require tax law changes to help Ranchers make those changes........They wildlife out there is not the devil.....They are worth saving and increasing their numbers......It is not about being a tree hugger or valuing wolves over people.............We are the people that we are because our ancestors over millenia grew up alongside the wildlife on the planet.................historically animals were revered and admired for their beauty, strength and ability to surive in a dangerous world...............it is just over the past several thousand years that our monotheism beliefs have had man interpret the bible in a way that justifies eliminating animals that do not suit us. It seems that the intent of the scriptures was to make us the caretakers of all life on earth, not be its destroyers............the story of Noah my dear Z -biker.................worth your re-reading.
so up on this blog come two sound revelations.............one by archaeolgists portraying the Grreater Yellowstone as having been excellent bison(as well as Elk, Moose, Mule Deer, Pronghorn, Wolf Griz, Cougar) habitat going back pre European contact...................
2nd being modern day 1880-1930 wolf and cougar recorded bounties in a Montana ecosystem greatly altered and degraded over a 500 year period by both Indian hunters on non native horses and commercial white hunters and bounty getters.....................
And then you have the gumption to say becasue wolf and cougar bounties outside the "core" Yellowstone region were significanctly higher, therefore screw putting the wolves back on the ground in Yellowstone.................
Zbiker, 500 years of "rip and raze" human degradation of wildlife and becasue in the most recent recorded documentation, not as many wolves were killed in Yellowstone and therefore do not put them back there..................Where should we put them?...Downtown Denver? For my money, they should be up and down and across the entire USA wherever enough open space allows...............that means the Adirondacks, Green and White Mountains in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York and Pennsylvania...............It means down the Appalachian Spine through the Smoky Mountains and onto Northern Georgia.............It means (with Buffalo restoration) across the Great Plains and Texas..................It means into California and up into Oregon and Washington State...................as well as Yellowstone to Yukon.........................and Arizona, New Mexico, Utah
Please stop being so narrow in your interpretations and comments..............the world did not begin in 1880 or 1930 or whenever you came onto the Planet........
The land is healthier with the widest variety of plants and animals occupying it. Over 50% of our medicines and foodstuffs come from wild plants and animals and we have barely touched the tip of the iceberg as it relates to understanding lifes processes and possibilities. If we do not have the broadest suite of living creatures on the ground, selfishly, you and I are not giving ourselves and our grandchildren the raw material to continue to make life great and rewarding.
I am all for the Ranchers continuing to make a living and enjoying the lifestyle that they have known for 150 years. I am asking for a little openmindedness and FAMILY VALUE orientation applied to our fellow creatures.....a modification of some of our habits..............this might require tax law changes to help Ranchers make those changes........They wildlife out there is not the devil.....They are worth saving and increasing their numbers......It is not about being a tree hugger or valuing wolves over people.............We are the people that we are because our ancestors over millenia grew up alongside the wildlife on the planet.................historically animals were revered and admired for their beauty, strength and ability to surive in a dangerous world...............it is just over the past several thousand years that our monotheism beliefs have had man interpret the bible in a way that justifies eliminating animals that do not suit us. It seems that the intent of the scriptures was to make us the caretakers of all life on earth, not be its destroyers............the story of Noah my dear Z -biker.................worth your re-reading.
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By Baerh, 9-01-10
first gety rid of all the tax payer subsidized ranching, road building and logging. cows have no plave on arid western public lands. Next bring back the Bison and other native flora/fauna. Next educate the hysterical, gun toting right wingers that wolves are not a threat to their existence. Promote a sustainable economy based on eco-tourism, subsistence hunting/farming, and outdoor education. This all possible and capable of happening, it's no pipe dream.
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By rick meril, 9-01-10
I share your longings but ask that you take into account that the way our system works, the Government is never going to spend the billions needed to buy out all of that land and restore it to conditions circa 1500..........The Real Estate guys will swoop down and sell off ranchettes and we will have Western Suburbs in the Rockies(look at Denver exurbs now).................I think that enlisting the support of our Rancher friends(even if Zbiker and Todd and others do not want to give an inch during this debate) is the way to go.............I want their kids and grandkids to have a love for the land and all of its inhabitants just like many of us do now. Since we are animals, nature and wilderness should not be abstracts and places that we go to see...................Nature and wilderness should be all around us. After all, native peoples did not see the woods, plains and Mountains as wilderness...........it was there home................and even they sometimes degraded their immediate environment and disappeared into the annals of history(Mound builders, Inca, etc).
We Americans in large part dervie our identity from Wild America...............Our work ethic, love of freedom, our tendency to name our cars, sports teams and such with the names of the very creatures(timberwolf, panther, bobcat, jaguar, wolverines, bears, etc)that many of us want destroyed or done away with................a paradox of the human brain,,,,,,,,,,,,to love and admire something while simultaneously looking to eliminate.............Let us all continue to collaborate and keep America wild and free................any other way spells an America that will be a very different place than what brought folks here 400 years ago..........................Go wolves, Go Cougars, Go Griz, Go Wolverine.................Go Humans..............we should all persist and thrive.
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By zbiker, 9-01-10(quoting Rick Meril in part below)
By rick meril, 9-01-10
zbiker....................geez, first you and Todd challenge me to produce statistics revealing that gray wolves existed in the Greater Yellowstone System...
( i think you misinterpreted my post rick,Historically, the wolf populations originally native to Yellowstone were classed under the subspecies C. l. irremotus or C. l. nubilus which is a smaller subspecies of the grey wolf from canada. through some juggling of the books the grey wolf was chosen to be reintroduced because it was thought to have an advantage for survival due both size and aggressiveness. this has been proven to be fatefully true.
I am sorry you took offence to my noticing how few wolves were
naturally habitating the area, the point i was making was that although the gya is a great area for ungulates, the wolves were not saturating the area as they do now. this fact should be considered when ranching/wolf/federal land discussion of the area is undertaken.
As far as the rip and raze of the past is concerned, unlike many i realize that living in the 21st century makes it impossible to restore the face of the nation to it's earliest native american population condition, and as much as many throw that idea around as an ideal situation being a realist i know it cannot be. the face of the nation has advanced much in 500 years and we cannot go back.
You ask "Where should we put them?...Downtown Denver? ". while the idea has some merit it strikes at the very point i am addressing, A wolf would be no more welcome in down town denver that it would be in the Adirondacks or Green and White Mountains in Maine. Although i must admit it would be fun to turn loose 1700 wolves loose in Burbank, i suspect the fallout would be devastating
Perhaps you have read about the states that are now passing legislation to stop wolf introduction in their area,Arkansas still has a bounty for wolves, as does Colorado (despite the fact that the gray wolf is also listed as an endangered species under state law). Nebraska has a law authorizing the use of explosive traps and poison gas for wolf control. Several states, such as Oklahoma, categorize the wolf as a predator, making it ineligible for protection. South Dakota recently repealed a prohibition on the hunting of wolves.
Where should we put the wolves ??, well since they are still considered a NON ESSENTIAL experimental species, how about we put them back where we found them ??, at least till we can figure out how to keep their population in check
considering the states economic woes of 2010.
zbiker....................geez, first you and Todd challenge me to produce statistics revealing that gray wolves existed in the Greater Yellowstone System...
( i think you misinterpreted my post rick,Historically, the wolf populations originally native to Yellowstone were classed under the subspecies C. l. irremotus or C. l. nubilus which is a smaller subspecies of the grey wolf from canada. through some juggling of the books the grey wolf was chosen to be reintroduced because it was thought to have an advantage for survival due both size and aggressiveness. this has been proven to be fatefully true.
I am sorry you took offence to my noticing how few wolves were
naturally habitating the area, the point i was making was that although the gya is a great area for ungulates, the wolves were not saturating the area as they do now. this fact should be considered when ranching/wolf/federal land discussion of the area is undertaken.
As far as the rip and raze of the past is concerned, unlike many i realize that living in the 21st century makes it impossible to restore the face of the nation to it's earliest native american population condition, and as much as many throw that idea around as an ideal situation being a realist i know it cannot be. the face of the nation has advanced much in 500 years and we cannot go back.
You ask "Where should we put them?...Downtown Denver? ". while the idea has some merit it strikes at the very point i am addressing, A wolf would be no more welcome in down town denver that it would be in the Adirondacks or Green and White Mountains in Maine. Although i must admit it would be fun to turn loose 1700 wolves loose in Burbank, i suspect the fallout would be devastating
Perhaps you have read about the states that are now passing legislation to stop wolf introduction in their area,Arkansas still has a bounty for wolves, as does Colorado (despite the fact that the gray wolf is also listed as an endangered species under state law). Nebraska has a law authorizing the use of explosive traps and poison gas for wolf control. Several states, such as Oklahoma, categorize the wolf as a predator, making it ineligible for protection. South Dakota recently repealed a prohibition on the hunting of wolves.
Where should we put the wolves ??, well since they are still considered a NON ESSENTIAL experimental species, how about we put them back where we found them ??, at least till we can figure out how to keep their population in check
considering the states economic woes of 2010.
_________________________________________
By rick meril, 9-01-10
zbiker..................the so-called sub species of wolves and cougar and for that matter, a good many other species has been in flux on an on-going basis..................there were umpteenth number of historical subspecies of Cougar but we know now that a cougar is a cougar is a cougar whether remnant in Florida or thriving in California. Gray, Mexican, Red(or Eastern) Wolf.............there physiological evolution dovetailed with the evolution of the prey base in a given region.............If there were Buffalo on the ground(as there were over Montana and Greater Yellowstone, there were buffalo eating wolves................that is why Biologist Nowak concludes that in the 17th Century when Buffalo ranged as far East as New York State and the Carolinas, that both the gray wolf(buffalo eater) and the red wolf(deer eater)overlapped down thru the Ohio Valley into the Appalachians. Why so resistant to the fact that wolves and all of the hoofed animals have been doing a very sophisticated and interlocked tango down thru the millenia? Recognize that we are in 2010 and not 1610..............also recognize that the Willows and stream beds are healthier with the Elk not able to idle and eat to their hearts content(Biologist John Laundre's "fear" revelation)..................also realize that Lymes disease is out of control in the East because even the 40-50 pound Eastern Coyote(with 25% wolf genes) is still not the deer and moose eater that the 70-100 pound red wolf is................and thus, the deer tick has gone crazy on the ever expanding white tail deer herds East of the Mississippi..............
There will always be challenges in giving up something for getting something. Would we have been a better Nation if we had not taken land for our National Parks? I do not think so.............and yes, some people came up short in that process. Instead of hiding from those challenges, let us admit that the "good of the many" outweighs the good of the few, or the one". Wolves and Cougars back across the USA for me with financial incentives for those who have to modify behavior and business practice.
There will always be challenges in giving up something for getting something. Would we have been a better Nation if we had not taken land for our National Parks? I do not think so.............and yes, some people came up short in that process. Instead of hiding from those challenges, let us admit that the "good of the many" outweighs the good of the few, or the one". Wolves and Cougars back across the USA for me with financial incentives for those who have to modify behavior and business practice.
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